By: Matt Lauer, Katie Couric, Anchors; Kevin Tibbles, Reporter

May 25, 2005, The Today Show

MATT LAUER, co-host:

And this morning we're wrapping up our WHO'S THE BOSS? series with a look at gender in the workplace. Does it really matter to your career if your boss is a male or a female? And can anyone really leave their sexuality at the office front door? Here's NBC's Kevin Tibbles.

KEVIN TIBBLES reporting:

A male boss...

(Clip from "The Apprentice")

TIBBLES: ...a female subordinate, and a coy attempt to win favor that cost this wannabe apprentice her job. To flirt or not to flirt.

(Clip from "Taxi")

TIBBLES: Just one of the minefields in today's workplace where despite reams of sexual harassment law old habits and stereotypes die hard.

(Clip from "The Producers")

Professor WALTER SCOTT (Kellogg School of Management): In 2005 the evidence is clear that we haven't made much progress.

TIBBLES: Men who don't like working for women.

Unidentified Man #1: I found in the workplace that women are--tend to be more emotional than men.

TIBBLES: And men who do.

Unidentified Man #2: I just think that they're more in touch with their feelings.

TIBBLES: All perceptions that Julia Stewart, president and CEO of IHOP restaurants, wishes were long-since extinct.

Ms. JULIA STEWART: I really think it's not about gender. I think it's really about someone's style.

TIBBLES: Unfortunately, gender affects how that style is perceived.

Prof. SCOTT: An aggressive, ambitious, competitive woman might be perceived differently than a man with exactly the same propensities.

TIBBLES: Back in the world of pop culture, it's attraction, not friction, as the female boss just can't help hitting on her male secretary.

(Clip from "Friends")

TIBBLES: But in the real world...

Ms. STEWART: There may be an office romance, but if it interferes with work then it's a problem.

TIBBLES: A problem that's bound to be around as long as there are offices...

(Clip from "The Producers")

TIBBLES: ...and men and women working in them. For TODAY, Kevin Tibbles, NBC News, Chicago.

LAUER: Deborah Swiss is an expert on gender issues in the workplace and the author of "The Male Mind at Work: A Woman's Guide to Working with Men."

Hey, Deborah, good to see you. You interviewed a bunch of male CEOs and most told you they were scared to death to work with a woman as a superior, but then they told you after they did they were pleasantly surprised.

Ms. DEBORAH SWISS ("The Male Mind at Work"): Absolutely. What they said is that at first they were horrified when they found out they were going to have a woman as a boss, and then what they found--that they loved working for a woman. And they said things like, `My boss gives me better feedback than any man I've ever worked for.'

LAUER: I--i-is that a typical female characteristic, more feedback and positive feedback for--for missions accomplished?

Ms. SWISS: Yes, yeah.

LAUER: And men like that because they weren't getting it from their male superiors.

Ms. SWISS: Absolutely.

LAUER: Also, she leaves her ego at the door, a lot of men told you that.

Ms. SWISS: Mm-hmm. That she doesn't have the swagger in her step that many men do, she doesn't trip over her ego in the way in the front door. And that was comforting to them.

LAUER: Men also told you they--they found that a female boss saw things in shades of gray...

Ms. SWISS: Right.

LAUER: ...as opposed to black and white.

Ms. SWISS: Right.

LAUER: What do you think they meant by that?

Ms. SWISS: Right. That it's a broader lens on the world of work. That men would say, `Let's just do it,' whereas we might say, `Let's look at a bunch of issues here. Let's look at the impact on the whole organization before we move ahead.'

LAUER: I--I--I know you talk to a lot of women, and they're--and they're also telling you that they are learning things from their--from their male--male...

Ms. SWISS: Yes, yes.

LAUER: ...counter--counterparts in terms of achieving success. One of them is, and this is telling about men, act assured even if you're not.

Ms. SWISS: Right.

LAUER: Why is that so important for a woman?

Ms. SWISS: Right. You need to walk into a room as you if own it because when--the male executives freely admitted that they hold their female colleagues to a higher performance standard. So you're going to be watched more closely as a woman.

LAUER: Except it's weird because you say that they don't walk in thinking they own the room--you--you said before that women don't have that swagger...

Ms. SWISS: Right.

LAUER: ...so men seem to want it both ways.

Ms. SWISS: Absolutely.

LAUER: Also, you said that sometimes a jerk is a jerk. Men realize this, and women are learning it.

Ms. SWISS: Yes. And as a woman, my first instinct if I have a difficult interaction with a client or a colleague, is to think `What did I do wrong? How could I handle it differently?' Whereas most men said, `You know what? Sometimes a jerk is just a jerk. It's not me.'

LAUER: Well, men--men use it as a defense mechanism. They say, `It couldn't be about me...'

Ms. SWISS: Right.'

LAUER: `...so this guy must just be a jerk.'

Ms. SWISS: Right. Yeah.

LAUER: What about romance in--I mean, clearly human resource departments have been set up...

Ms. SWISS: Mm-hmm.

LAUER: ...to handle things like this. But even with all the pressure of sexual harassment lawsuits and things...

Ms. SWISS: Mm-hmm.

LAUER: ...are we still seeing flirtation used to get ahead in the job?

Ms. SWISS: We are, and it might--in the long run it's going to set a career back. Bad thing to do.

LAUER: So your rule--I think about 12 percent of companies that you surveyed have some workplace rules in place...

Ms. SWISS: Yes.

LAUER: ...for dating on the job.

Ms. SWISS: Yes.

LAUER: Are we going to be seeing more and more companies come up with that as being a complete taboo?

Ms. SWISS: Probably, but it really doesn't matter. I mean, you have to use common sense. The simple fact is dating and romance is complicated enough, and when you bring in issues of power and job security and authority, it just gets all the more complicated.

LAUER: Bottom line is men and women have been working together for a long time, we still seem to have issues, but still have issues in marriage--marriage between men and women--so why wouldn't it take place in the workplace? Deborah Swiss, thanks so much.

Ms. SWISS: Thank you.

LAUER: It's 50 minutes after the hour, and still ahead on TODAY, a TODAY investigation, the flood of counterfeit prescription drugs that are on the market. The fallout can be deadly, and we'll talk about that. But first, we're back after these messages.

***

KATIE COURIC, co-host:

And coming up, our very own easy rider.

LAUER: You think of me, you think, `Bad boy,' right?

COURIC: Oh, yeah.

LAUER: You think--you think renegade, you think hell-raiser, you think Harley. We're hitting the open road right after your local news.